سالفة كسر الطاولة تاريخية.
طيب, بما اني مو قاعد اشوف اهتمام كبير بالمناظرة الي سبقت المعركة, نروح للمعركة نفسها.
طبعا المعركة هذه فعلا تضارب خيالي فيها, لان حتى مصادر Wei راح تدخل بالسالفة.
هذه من كلمات البروفيسور راف في كتاب جنرالات الجنوب, كمقدمة للدلالة على كون المعركة غير واضحة المعالم.
Like the record of the debate at Sun Quan's court which preceded it, the history of the battle at the Red Cliffs is confused and almost overwhelmed by the accretions of romantic heroism which have developed around the conflict. Indeed, so great is the mass of fiction, one might wonder if any fighting took place at all.77
طيب نشوف سيرة Cao Cao:
His Excellency arrived at Chibi and joined battle with Bei, to his detriment. Whereupon there was a widespread illness that left a great many soldiers and officials dead, and His Excellency thereupon led his army in retreat. Bei straightaway took possession .of all the commanderies of Jing province and Jiangnan. (71)
71: Shan Yang’s Yearly Record of His Excellency states, “His Excellency’s boats and warships were therein burnt by Bei, and His Excellency led the army, by way of the Huarong road, in retreat on foot. They came upon muddy ground, the road could not be traveled and the skies also blew a great wind. His Excellency employed the weary soldiers to retrieve plant detritus to fill it in, so that those on horseback therefore were able to get through. The men on horseback trampled upon the exhausted infantrymen, who became mired in the mud, and there were a great many dead. Once the army had managed to get through, His Excellency showed great happiness, and when all of his generals inquired about it, he replied, “Liu Bei and I are peers. However, his strategy was deficient in taking place at night; in the event that he had set the fires in the morning, I would presently be walking alone.” Bei pursued him to try and set additional blazes but was unable to catch him. Sun Sheng’s Record of Contradictory Opinions states, “According to Wu records, Liu Bei attacked His Excellency first and then later Quan attacked Hefei. However, this record says that Quan attacked Hefei first and then afterward was the matter of Chibi. Where the two records disagree the Wu records should be considered the correct account.”
Cao Cao وصل الى Chibi و تحارب مع Liu Bei. انتشر مرض كبير ادى الى مقتل الكثير من الجنود و المسؤولين, و لذلك انسحب Cao Cao. تمكن Liu Bei من احتلال مقاطعات اقليم Jing و مدينة Jiangnan.
مصدر فرعي هو Shang Yang's Yearly Record of his Excellency, يقول ان سفن Cao Cao بعد ذلك حرقها Liu Bei و كان Cao Cao يقود الجيش عائدا من Huarong بالاقدام. و لقوا ارضا طينية و لم يتمكنوا من الهرب و ارسلت السماء ريحا قوية. قال Cao Cao للجنود ان يرموا اغصان الاشجار على الطين للعبور عليها لكن الخيالة دهسوا الجنود التعاب و قتل الكثيرون. عندما وصلت القوات بسلام, كان Cao Cao فرحا جدا و سأله من حوله عن سبب فرحه فقال "انا و Liu Bei متساويان. لكن خطته كانت ضعيفة لانه قامت في الليل. لو انه قام بها بالنهار لكنت امشي هنا لوحدي". لحقه Liu Bei و حاول احداث المزيد من الحرائق لكنه لم يتمكن من القبض عليه. كتاب Sun Sheng المسمى بـ Record Of Contradictory Opinions يقول "مصادر Wu تقول ان Liu Bei هاجم Cao Cao اولا بعدها Sun Quan هاجم Hefei لكن هذا المصدر يقول ان Quan بعدها حصلت Chibi. في هذه الحالة, عند تخالف المصدرين يجب اعتبار مصدر Wu هو الصحيح".
الحين سيرة Huang Gai
- اقتباس :
During of the Jian’an reign, he followed Zhou Yu to defend against Lord Cao at Chibi. He suggested the stratagem of fire-attack. This is recorded in Zhou Yu’s biography (2). He was made “Martial-sharp” General of the Interior.
Huang Gai شارك في Chibi و اقترح خطة الاحراق و هذا مدون في سيرة Zhou Yu و تم بعد المعركة ترقية Huang Gai.
في مصدر فرعي في نفس السيرة يقول:
(2) From History of Wu: During the Chibi battles, Huang Gai was hit by a stray arrow, and fell into the river in full winter cold. He was saved by some soldiers of Wu, but they didn’t know that it was Huang Gai. They placed him lying in a bed. Huang Gai gathered enough strength to cry out Han Dang’s name, and when Han Dang heard it, he said, “That’s the voice of Gongfu!” Thus he turned to him, and weeping, he assisted him to change his wet clothes. And so Huang Gai survived
مصدر تاريخ Wu يقول ان Huang Gai اصيب بسهم في هذه المعركة و لم يتعرف عليه احد - حسبوه جندي - و انقذه Han Dang يوم تعرف عليه و ساعده.
سيرته تقولنا نروح لسيرة Zhou Yu, هذه سيرته:
In addition, Liu Bei sent Zhuge Liang as an envoy to Sun Quan. Following that, Sun Quan dispatched Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and other Wu generals to meet Liu Bei in order to consolidate their forces against Cao Cao’s army. The army of the Sun-Liu alliance engaged Cao Cao’s army at Chi Bi. During then, Cao Cao’s army was already having problems with many soldiers falling sick. As such, during the initial engagement, Cao Cao’s army was promptly defeated and retreated back to the northern shore of the river Yang Tze.
Seeing that Cao Cao’s army was numerous, Huang Gai felt that it would be difficult to resist them for long. However, he observed that Cao Cao’s ships were linked together and he suggested to Zhou Yu that it was actually possible to repel the enemies if they launched a fire attack at them. The suggestion was accepted and preparations were made for the fireboats (boats stuffed with inflammable materials). Subsequently, a letter was sent to Cao Cao falsely claiming that Huang Gai intended to surrender. The ruse was successful and the soldiers of Wei were anticipating the arrival of Huang Gai. At that moment, Huang Gai arrived and set his fireboats on fire. Aided by the strong winds and the fact that Cao Cao’s ships were chained together, the fire quickly spread throughout Cao Cao’s navy and even to the naval camps on the shore. Within moments, the raging inferno resulted in heavy casualties in Cao Cao’s army.
Sun Quan ارسل Zhou Yu و Cheng Pu و اخرون عشان يلتقون بـ Liu Bei للتوحيد قواتهم ضد Cao Cao. و تقاتل الطرفان في Chibi و عانت قوات Cao Cao من المرض و هزمت قواته في اول التحام و انسحب. عندما رأى Huang Gai عدد قوات Cao Cao اعتقد انه من الصعب مقاومتهم لفترة طويلة لكنه لاحظ ربط سفن Cao Cao ببعضها و اقترح لـ Zhou Yu ان يقوم باحراق سفن Cao Cao. تم قبول الاقتراح و اعدت التجهيزات باستخدام سفن مفخخة. و ارسلت رسالة الى Cao Cao تقنعه فيها برغبة Huang Gai بالاستسلام و انطلت الخدعة و انتظر جنود Wei قدوم Huang Gai. وصلت قوات Huang Gai و احرق سفن Cao Cao الرياح القوية و ترابط سفن Cao Cao زاد من انتشار النيران و وصلت الى سفن Cao Cao عند الشاطىء. بغضون لحظات تسببت النيران الملتهبة بأضرار كبيرة لـ Cao Cao.
سيرة Liu Bei:
[They] defeated Lord Cao and burnt his ships at Chibi. The First Sovereign and the Wu troops pursued Lord Cao along land and water. (XXVIII) They chased Lord Cao to Nanjun. Lots of disease spread in Lord Cao’s camp, hence he retreated. (24)
سيرته تقول انه هو + قوات Wu احرقوا سفن Cao Cao و لاحقوه برا و بحرا.
مصدر فرعي بسيرته يقول:
23: Jiang Biao Zhuan: After listening to Lu Su’s advice, Liu Bei went to Fankou. Zhuge Liang was still with Wu. Liu Bei heard of Cao Cao’s plans to lead a southern expedition, and constantly looked out for Zhou Yu’s naval forces. Someone told Liu Bei that Zhou Yu’s forces arrived, to which Liu Bei asked him, ‘How do you know it is Zhou Yu’s forces?’. The soldier replied, ‘I saw their boat’. Liu Bei sent someone to welcome them. Zhou Yu said, ‘I have a mission from my Lord and am too busy to go to your camp, so I hope you can come instead.’ Liu Bei said to Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, ‘You do not have to worry about this. Today, I have to been asked to go. If I do not go, how can an alliance exist?’. Alone, Liu Bei went to meet with Zhou Yu and said, ‘We are now fighting Cao Cao, so how many troops did you bring?’. Zhou Yu replied, ‘Thirty thousand’. Liu Bei said, ‘So little?’. Zhou Yu replied, ‘It is enough, let me show [Liu] Yuzhou (XXX) how I will defeat Cao Cao’. Liu Bei said that he wanted to see Lu Su. Zhou Yu replied, ‘If you want to see Zijing (XXXI) you can go see him yourself. Kongming will be returning soon, maybe in about three days time’. Liu Bei did not believe Zhou Yu could defeat the Northern troops but afterwards regretted giving two thousand troops to Guan Yu and Zhang Fei rather than to Zhou Yu. This was a forward-retreat (jin tui) scheme. (XXXII)
Liu Bei يستقبل Zhou Yu و Zhou Yu يعامله بعجرفه, الخ الخ, Liu Bei يسأل Zhou Yu عن عدد الجنود يقوله 30,000, يكمل المعاملة بعجرفة. بعدين Liu Bei يعتقد ان Zhou Yu ما يقدر ينتصر, فيخش جنوده و يعطيهم Zhang Fei و Guan Yu عشان يقلل الخسائر لانه متوقع الهزيمة, لكنه بعد الانتصار تحسف انه ما ارسل جنوده للقتال و تقاسم مجد الانتصار.
مصدر فرعي في نفس السيرة, تعليق المؤرخ Sun Sheng
Though Liu Bei was able, he was in a place where there was no hope and had to beg for the help of Wu. Hence he was in no position to offer any opinion or comment on the military setup. IThis passage in Jiang Biao Zhuan was in line with the people of Wu’s desire to glorify the conversation.
يقول ان Liu Bei ما كان بوضع يسمح له يناقش بأمور المعركة و التعديل لانه كان لاجىء لهم. هذه الفقرة يتهمها المؤرخ انها تلفيق من Wu لتعظيم الانتصار.
من كتاب ZZTJ
Cao Cao's army was now weary, and there was sickness. In the first attack,Cao Cao's men gained nothing, and they went back to the north of theYangzi. Zhou Yu and his forces were on the south bank.Huang Gai, a divisional commander under Zhou Yu, said, "The enemy aremany and we are few. It will be difficult to hold them for long. Just at this
moment, in Cao Cao's array the ships of the fleet are joined stem to stern. We can burn them and put them to flight."
He took ten covered ships of war,87 filled them with tinder grass and dried wood, poured oil inside, then covered them with tent curtains and setup flags. He prepared light fast boats and fastened them to the sterns. And
before this he had sent a letter to Cao Cao pretending he wanted to surrender.88
At this time a strong wind was blowing from the southeast. Huang Gai collected his ten ships and put them in the van. Half-way across the Yangzi he set sail, and the other ships followed him in orderd
Cao Cao's men all came from their camps to look, and they pointed and
said that Huang Gai was coming to surrender. When he was just over two li
from the northern army, he set all the ships on fire.
The fire was fierce and the wind was strong, and the ships went like
arrows. The whole of the northern fleet was burnt, and the fire reached the
camps on the bank. In a very short time there was smoke and flame
stretched across the sky, and a whole multitude of men and horses were
burned or drowned and died.
Zhou Yu and the allies led a light-armed force to follow up the assault.
They beat their drums with a mighty roar, and the northern army was
utterly smashed.
[Ja13:208]
QQ Cao Cao led his troops on foot to escape by the Huarong road.89 They
encountered mud and mire, and the road became impassable. Heaven sent
a great wind, and the sick soldiers had to carry grass on their backs to fill
the road before the horsemen could get across. They were trodden down by
the men and horses, sunk into the mud, and a whole mass of them died
together.
RR Liu Bei and Zhou Yu advanced by land and water, and they pursued Cao
Cao to Nan commandery. All Cao Cao's men were starving and sick, and the
greater part of them died.
التحم الجيشان, عانت قوات Cao Cao من المرض, انسحبت, اقترح Huang Gai خطة النار, جهز الرسالة و جهز السفينة المفخخة. احرق سفن Cao Cao وسط الرياح العاتية, وصلت النيران للجهة الاخرى, انسحب قوات Cao Cao و لقت الطين الي بالطريق و حاولوا تغطيتها بالاغصان لكن تداهوا الجنود اثناء لحاق Zhou Yu و قوات التحالف. هرب Cao Cao من لحاق Liu Bei و Zhou Yu و الاخرون الذين تقدموا برا و بحرا.
كتاب جنرالات الجنوب شرحه طويل للمعركة لكن ما اضاف تفاصيل جديدة لكنه نوه الى نقطتين حلوين:
1 - الرياح ما كانت 100% مفاجاة و غير معتادة, و بنفس الوقت ما كانت عادة سنوية. الفترة هذه بالسنة كان فيها فرصة ان الرياح مثل هذه تصير لكن كان المتوقع ان في غالب الوقت الرياح لصالح Cao Cao.
2 - في مصادر تقول ان في نهاية المعركة Cao Cao احرق باقي السفن الي ما احترقت و انسحب عشان يؤخر قوات التحالف من اللحاق به.
منتظرين النقاش و ادري في شغلات تصدم بالمعركة هذه هههههه.
موضوع: البروباغاندا تلبد سماء Chibi - موضوع نقاش 
الجمعة 13 مايو 2011, 4:53 am
